Phil R Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I've been watching this pistol for the last week. It jumped $4,200. at the end. I guess some people have more money than God. The sky's the limit. What's this about boxes? $5,485. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbius Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 BOXES RULE, PHIL!!!! ...and, you're the MASTER of the BOX aren't you??Actually, Robert Lesser enlightened me last spring at Botstock about availability of boxes on these type of toys. The conversation went something to the effect of: In lean times such as that of the 1920's, '30's, kids were lucky to get a toy at all even at Xmas time. When they did recieve one, it was promptly put back into the box and then up to the shelf in the closet when playtime was done to 'take care of it'as it was doubtful that you'd get another like it. Sometimes I guess, they'd be forgotten about for decades, hence the neat finds.That's one neat box! I WANT ONE!!! :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fineas J. Whoopie Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I was bidder #8. I just spent the last ten days kidding myself that I had a shot at winning it. A slim chance but a chance nonetheless. This is I believe only the second example of the box known. Congrats to the winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 It's probably no surprise that I've been itching to talk about this one since it appeared on eBay. However, I knew Fineas would fly across the country to kick my ass if I so much as made a peep. So I held my tongue and waited for it to end...I actually thought this auction would finish a bit higher. Not only is the gun extremely rare, but the box is even rarer. Before this auction, there was only one box known to exist. Period. So I knew that the chance to own a wonderful example would bring at least some of the big guys out of the woodwork. (I only wish eBay let me see who all the bidders were.)So what's the big deal? Consider: Recently, a nearly dead-mint Buck Rogers XZ-44 Liquid Helium pistol and nearly dead-mint box appeared on ebay. This gun normally sells for about $800 in really great condition. The boxed example went for over $5000. And this is a toy that, despite it's high price, appears on ebay nearly every month. The fact is, they're not that rare. The box, on the other hand, is extremely scarce, especially in that sort of condition. So jacked the price by more than 600%!Now, the Pyrotomic Disintegrator is much rarer than the XZ-44.(And when it does turn up, it's often broken.) It came in a number of color combinations -- red/blue/yellow; red/yellow/blue (blue and yellow reversed); copper/silver; red/yellow/green; and red/yellow/black. (There were also two versions -- that I know about -- of the rifle: copper/silver and red/yellow/blue. There's also an Argentinian knock off that just sold on ebay...)In terms of known and documented examples (I'm sure more are lurking in hidden collections, attics, and underground caves), they break down like this:• Copper/silver: 10-15. Rare, but not as rare as the others.• Both versions of the red/yellow/blue: 6 (three of each)• Red/yellow/green: 3 (and one is broken)• Red/yellow/black: 1The example up for grabs was the third red/yellow/green. However, most people don't even know about the other two; as far as many collectors are concerned, this was a unique example of the toy. (The first one popped up when a guy -- not a collector -- emailed me to say that he had the Pyro in green... I didn't believe him, but he sent pics and there it was. The second turned up in a collection, but it was broken. I've got documentation of both.)I'd say the candy colored Pyros are worth between $1400 and $1800. Given that this one was assumed by most people to be singular, the price could be closer to $2000. So that's 20% of the auction's realized price right there.If a box doubles a toy's value, you've already hit $4000. But we all know that some boxes are worth even more than the toy, and this is certainly the case. Hence the final $1400.However, a jump in valuation of $2000 to $5000 is nowhere near as dramatic a leap as that of the Liquid Helium (again, $800 to over $5000). Which is why I expected the auction to end much higher. I've already had dealers tell me that they estimated the value to be in the $6000 range.So what happened? Why didn't this crown jewel of ray gun collecting go even further up into space? Why didn't it come closer to replicating the Liquid Helium's climb in percentage? I think that, paradoxically, the toy's scarcity worked against it as much as it worked for it. It's so rare that many collectors didn't even fully understand just what they were dealing with. They didn't know that this was only the second box, for instance. Consequently, they didn't anticipate spending more money. Only a a few people in the end seemed to know what they were really going for, and they're the two that drove up the final price. Part of the reason for this is that there's much less of a ray gun community than there is, say, a robot community. On Alphadrome, I can only think of maybe five non-lurkers who actively discuss ray guns and promote them as a collectible: Myself, Fineas, Phil, Rocket, and Toyboy. (If I've missed anyone, I apologize!) Sure, there are many more collectors out there, but they seem to keep to themselves. Besides the four on Alphadrome, I know the names of 10 other enthusiastic ray gun collectors -- and of them, I'm friends with two, I've bought a toy from two others, and I've never said a word to the rest. Compare that to how many robot collectors I've met face to face and you can quickly see the difference between the two hobbies.Another reason that the gun didn't go a bit higher, I think, is that most people just won't spend $12,000 for a ray gun. There's a point at which the general rules of valuation come up against the more practical way in which people approach their spending. Ray gun collecting doesn't have the prominence of robot or space toy collecting, and therefore, even pieces that are rarer than a Machine Man don't come close to selling for the same amount. There just aren't enough collectors with deep pockets.Or, rather, there aren't enough big-time collectors on eBay. I'm sure that if a dealer had the boxed Pyrotomic and a good network of buyers, that dealer could get at least $6000 for the toy -- probably more, if he played his cards right.Anyway, this was a huge thrill for me -- even if I couldn't even place a bid! (I lived vicariously through Donald on this one.) I love ray guns as much as I love robots, and on some days, even more. To see this one pop up was like catching a glimpse of the Holy Grail at a Coffee Mug Convention. Now, I suppose that it's possible that the sale of this boxed Pyro will bring one or two more out of people's attics as they realize what they've got. However, if I had to place a bet, I'd say that I'm never going to see this toy and box pop up again -- especially in this condition. That was just great...!(And I'm just glad I've already got two of the guns!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Oh, and to put this in perspective... A gold 1950s Pez gun sold for something like $7000 -- the most expensive loose ray gun I'd ever seen until...A clear one sold for about $14,000!Nothing else even comes close to that price. However, it was battled up by Pez collectors, who are even crazier than space toy collectors! (There were a few ray gun collectors on the bidding lists, if I remember correctly, but they bailed well before the Pez guys began their feeding frenzy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry seven Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 :) Rarity and phenominal design, yes, 'beauty' aside (the red Pyro is just lovely), does the fact that this was a plastic gun and not the heavy metal gun of the Daisy variety enter into the picture at all? Are there enthusiastic ray gun collectors who only collect the earlier metal guns? -Larry 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 There definitely are, Larry. But almost every serious ray gun collector I know (and that includes people who don't spend the high-end money, but love the ray guns with the same passion) wants the plastic ones as well. And even the ones who don't -- they often want the Pyro (though they tend to have more of an attraction to the copper/silver one, which makes a lot of sense). So while I'm sure there were hardcore collectors who sat this one out -- guys who would have happily paid $5000 for a boxed Liquid Helium -- I don't think it thinned the herd enough to have a big impact on the price. But of course, I can't say for certain.Though there is a related point to your comment which I forgot to mention, and that's the fact that something like the Liquid Helium attracts a wide range of collector, as it falls under a lot of different categories: ray gun, space toy, vintage toy, metal gun, water pistol, Daisy toy, Buck Rogers toy, general character toy... Anyone who collects any of those would be interested in the XZ44. Whereas the Pyro only potentially attracts fans of ray guns, Pyro plastics, plastic toys in general, vintage toys, and space toys in general. Those Buck collectors are pretty hardcore... It's like with the Pez gun -- the ones who drove the price all the way up were not the gun collectors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Young Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Price is a function of rarity and desirability. A lot of people forget about the latter. Despite the true rarity of the Pyro, it looks like the PEZ guns and boxed Liquid Helium gun have a higher desirability factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmiesparks Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 As a rule, I generally stay away from non-Japanese produced toys (mainly to narrow spending), but I have to say this is one nice raygun! Looks delicate - I can imagine most would have been destroyed pretty quickly. Great lines!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 It's funny -- my robots, for the most part, are Japanese tin. I never liked plastic (though that's changed lately). But my ray guns are almost all U.S.-made, and, for the most part, brightly colored plastic. I've got lots of theories as to why, but they're not important or interesting. As for it being delicate, you've got no idea. The plastic is SO brittle and thin, it feels like an egg shell. Not nearly as robust as some of the other plastic toys out there. One drop and the toy would probably just disintegrate. And while I know it's a Pyrotomic Disintegrator, I don't think that's what anyone had in mind when they named it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyman Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 To quote Duck Dodgers, "Well what do you know? Heh, heh...it disintegrated." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martijn Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 maybe an idea to make a new ray gun section on alphadrome?there is robots and plastic robots and space toys,i know nothing about ray guns apart from some pics in future toys and yesterdays toys,and love to read such stories like dratomics and i guess more people like guns (you're americans, not?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Most of the info on almost all known toy ray guns is covered on toyraygun.com. If you click on the category links -- 1940s guns, 1950s guns, European guns, etc -- you get a nice history and discussion of the toys. And at the top of the essay, there's a link that takes you to the actual guns. (Though I've always felt this particular link was sort of buried... Should have a much bigger button or something... but I digress...)Each listing includes a pic and caption. A few guns that have been discovered since the site went live are missing, and some of the descriptions need updating now that we've discovered more info. But for the most part, it's spot on. I'd say it's the best single source of info. For beautiful pictures, it's worth checking out the book Ray Gun, by Eugene Metcalf (he started the site, too, though it's now owned and run by Justin Pinchot, Alphadrome's own Rocket). Also, there are many nice pictures in Zap, by Leslie Singer -- though, since it was the first book on the subject, some of the information is sorely out of date or innacurate. But, considering no one knew any better at the time, Singer definitely gets an A+ for effort. My own web site WOULD be a good source for ray gun information if I actually updated the damn thing. I'll definitely be doing this over the next month or so, with new pictures of my 60+ guns, as well as in-depth descriptions and as much history and info as I know. If I'm lucky, some other Alphadromers will contribute pics of the stuff I don't have, making it much more comprehensive overall. (AHEM, Fineas... Toymemories... Phil... Rocket... Andyman... Toyboy...) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 Blast off also has some nice ray gun information. Dr A., If by chance I have anything you don't have let me know and I'll send a pic. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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