ATTENTION STEVE

[SH MIKE]

Steve, do you think they have any new news?

http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c249597e6

this is what I mean:

World's 1st Tin Robot Lilliput Original Made in Japan Why there are no records of world's 1st tin robot?

World's 1st robot was not made in Japan.

All started from the bizarre robot from the 50's "SOUTH POLE EXPLORER B-17"

Two versions of B-17 existed.

Lilliput created during prewar.

Japan in some ways, and some ways not (venturers at new land).

Movement of toy master Kuramochi & Kosuge at chaotic period.

Revealing the mystery of KT on Lilliput.

Relationship between China and Japan (mysterious trademark TOM).

It's that last one that bothers me.

I will let you know what I find out.

[Brian..]

It's probably the great non mystery of Tin Tom Lau putting Made in Japan on his Shanghai robots.This hobby really needs some of those Japanese guys to jump in with their knowledge. The closest we have is Gernot who does a fabulous job.

[SH MIKE]

Yes Brian, we need something more substantial than a Japanese Hang Tag Written in English and sent to a German Museum in 1937. (and written with a felt tip pen ? ? ?) :)

[steve]

As far as any good information - I guess there is only one way to find out!! Thx for the tip.

[Blechroboter]

...Japanese Hang Tag Written in English and sent to a German Museum in 1937. (and written with a felt tip pen ? ? ?) :)

It wasn´t written on with a felt tip pen. It was written with a ballpoint pen.

First ballpoint pen was made by german company Rotring in 1928. First felt tip pen was made in 1963 by japanese company Pentel. ;)

[Electric Robot and Son]

I think the variable width in the printing indicates it was probably done with a fountain pen.

[Brian..]

World's 1st Tin Robot Lilliput Original Made in Japan Why there are no records of world's 1st tin robot?

World's 1st robot was not made in Japan.

All started from the bizarre robot from the 50's "SOUTH POLE EXPLORER B-17"

Nothing better than a poor translation to get a good conspiracy theory going. It's the Glassy Troll syndrome.:P

[Keith Palmer]

SH, yes, that and the blotter effect as noted at the bottom of the D and the 7. Width in the R suggests a rotation.

[Keith Palmer]

I've always wondered why we don't have more (or any) Japanese contributors. I suppose it's about the language barrier. Are there no Japanese sites devoted to the history of old toy robots?

[Dirk]

Yes Brian, we need something more substantial than a Japanese Hang Tag Written in English and sent to a German Museum in 1937.

MIKE- great joke!!! Really - If this is no proof ... what ever in this world can be proofed ever - and what are the methods? OK we can ask the experts from PAWN STARS SHOP again. :lol:

By the way this is not a german toy museum, lets say its THE german toy museum located in Nuremberg - hometown of lets say hundreds of german companies who are into tintoys mostly closed already before WWII or after. And when it comes to tintoys and their history - where are the experts to tell them right from wrong?

When I remember correctly - this sample was not shipped to a museum. It was a Nuremberg company - Kellermann or Köhler - who ordered those samples. It was part of their showroom and so "Not for Sale!". It was found together with a second sample in between lots of toys from that company in the big stock of the Nuremberg Museum, after our dear VOLKER made his inquiry for old tintoy robots.

I would have not a single doubt, that this tag or the written date would be wrong - or falsificated. By whom or what would have been the motive doing that?

As a sort of "Homage" for old tintoy robots, Robot Lilliput or maybe just us = people, who care about old toy robots, the museum decided to built a little showcase in their permanent exhibition, where Robot Lilliput is to be seen now for everybody, who is interrested in tintoy history & all the goodies of the Nuremberg Toy Museum!

[SH MIKE]

"I think the variable width in the printing indicates it was probably done with a fountain pen."

The word "CABLE" and "DATED" and "NOT FOR SALE" looks like felt tip pen. Those words are not variable at all.

"The first patent on a ballpoint pen was issued on 30 October 1888, to John Loud,[3] a leather tanner, who was attempting to make a writing instrument that would be able to write on his leather products, which then-common fountain pens could not do. Loud's pen had a small rotating steel ball, held in place by a socket. Although it could be used to mark rough surfaces such as leather, as Loud intended, it proved to be too coarse for letter writing and was not commercially viable."

"In the period between 1904 and 1946 particularly, alternatives or improvements to the fountain pen were invented. Slavoljub Eduard Penkala invented a solid-ink fountain pen in 1907, a German inventor named Baum took out a ballpoint patent in 1910, and yet another ballpoint pen device was patented by Van Vechten Riesburg in 1916. In these inventions, the ink was placed in a thin tube whose end was blocked by a tiny ball, held so that it could not slip into the tube or fall out of the pen. The ink clung to the ball, which spun as the pen was drawn across the paper. These proto-ballpoints did not deliver the ink evenly. If the ball socket were too tight, the ink did not reach the paper. If it were too loose, ink flowed past the tip, leaking or making smears. Many inventors tried to fix these problems, but without commercial success."

(They were not practical.)

"László Bíró, a Hungarian newspaper editor, was frustrated by the amount of time that he wasted in filling up fountain pens and cleaning up smudged pages, and the sharp tip of his fountain pen often tore the paper. Bíró had noticed that inks used in newspaper printing dried quickly, leaving the paper dry and smudge free. He decided to create a pen using the same type of ink. Since, when tried, this viscous ink would not flow into a regular fountain pen nib, Bíró, with the help of his brother George, a chemist, began to work on designing new types of pens. Bíró fitted this pen with a tiny ball in its tip that was free to turn in a socket. As the pen moved along the paper, the ball rotated, picking up ink from the ink cartridge and leaving it on the paper. Bíró filed a British patent on 15 June 1938."

Also, has anyone besides me wondered why a tag, on a MINT TOY from 1937 that has almost no playware on it and was sent as a sample directly to the German Toy Museum, looks so worn ? The toy is MINT but the Tag looks like it was in the war ! ! !

[SH MIKE]

OK, Here is what we do know.

there were 2 versions of Lilliput. One with a dial attached to the chest and one with the dial molded into the chest.

Was this first version going to be a flint Sparker like Ratchet Robot ? Why would they put a hole in the chest and then just

fill it with a dial ? ? ?

Also, the second version always has beautiful chrome hands on it. The photos of the first one always shows badly damaged chrome. usually blackened.

But the second version always has brigh and shiney CHROME HANDS.

Here is a thought....... Maybe the first samples send out were the originals and the second version came out after the war, AFTER the success of

Atomic Robot Man. They wanted to sell more robots didn't they ? I still beleive they were either made at the same factory or some of the people

who made Lilliput also made ARM.

Why don't the Japanese tell us the truth ? Kitahara used to think Lilliput was from the 40's. Many books also think it was from the 40's or 50's

I think EVERYONE in Japan knows the truth and just laughs at us trying to figure it all out.

Theyre sneaky that way.

[Blechroboter]

You´re right about the ballpoint story Mike. But there´s a nice gloss to that story and it is about Rotring.

The german word for ballpoint pen is "Kugelschreiber" ( means "Ball Writer"). Usually Germans use the

short form "Kuli" instead of "Kugelschreiber". But originally "Kuli" comes from "Tintenkuli" ( Tinte means ink).

The famous Tintenkuli was created in 1928 by Rotring. It was a kind of forerunner of the Kugelschreiber/ballpoint pen,

although the technical function is different. The charakteristic attribute of the Tintenkuli is that its line has always the same wide.

Looks similar to the line of a felt tip pen.

[SH MIKE]

Dirk, that photo showing a Lilliput in a display case, is it the later version ? I see the Hang Tag in the photo. does it have the removable dial ? If it is, it's the only first version I have seen with bright chrome on it.

Is this the one HENK found in the 80's ? ? ? The one with the BRIGHT AND SHINEY CHROME HANDS ! ! !

Does THE Toy Museum have an Atomic Robot Man in thier collection ? Hmmmmmmmmm ?

[Blechroboter]

The german Toy Museum at Nuremberg has a Virtual Depot with 58000 objects pictured on their website.

http://www.museums.nuremberg.de/toy-museum/virtual-depot.html

The search function is a little bit tricky, but there you can see both their Lilliput robots.

Both do have different tags with a date of 1937. One was bought in 1972 by the museum, the other one in 1978.

At this time in Germany no one was interested in robot collecting. So why should someone fake the tags?

The first toy auction was made in 1969. Collectors of those days were interested in Märklin Toy Trains and steam machines.

No one noticed "ugly looking" japanese toys "made of thin tin" and "cheap printed".

That´s what german toy collectors said about japanese toys back in the 70s.

I´ve heard that the Toy Museum acquired both the robots directly from the archive of a toy company from Nuremberg.

Don´t have any doubt that the tags aren´t original.

PS: No Atomic Robot Man in the collection of the Toy Museum

PPS: The tag in Dirks photo can be seen behind Lilliputs legs