ToyMemories Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Thanks, Doc! (I should have said it's a Marx spaceship blueprint ) Yeah, I think it's more of a "future that SHOULD have been"! Ah, to have designs like that in our space program today... :rolleyes: More pics to come, before long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Have to add a few pics of the recent treasure "unearthed from the Umagi sands of Mars" Original 1952 hand-made Sparkling Pistol prototype... by Marx! Should be the parent of the Marx Rex Mars Sparkling Pistol. Appears to be completely hand-made/carved/sculpted (except for mechanism). Made out of what appears to be red acetate plastic (with white plastic details added on, then painted red). Really a beautiful piece, and needs to be seen in person to appreciate all the work that went into it. Some really talented artists created a truly memorable toy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 While updating the sites tonight I came across this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dratomic Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Looks just like the mold I've got! Very cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Looks just like the mold I've got! Very cool...Yeah Doc, exactly what I think... (I was wondering how long it would take until you spotted this! You're pretty quick! ;) )When I was going through pics for a section on one of my sites and came across that scan, I immediately thought of your mold, and dug up that thread. And because of where it supposedly came from (along with this drawing), I'd think it was a Marx mold cavity that for some reason went unused (or unfinished)... now what's with the strange Ideal connection, I don't know (unless someone has the wrong control pistol for their Ideal car)... seems otherwise there was some copying or agreement going on with this design... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martijn Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 the drawing of the gun looks a lot like the rocketshape remote control gun from robert the robot in the 1956 sears catalogI know very little of these american early plastic toys, you talk about a connection between marx and ideal, what was it?btw beautiful strange collection you have! I enjoy following this, keep the items coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe K. Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Related photos of this unusual piece:The die The Doctor received from David Kirk:http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209010029.jpgThe remote controller that Electric Robot and Son identifies as being from the Ideal Sabre Car:http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209048127.jpghttp://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209048167.jpghttp://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209059332.jpghttp://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209059390.jpgAn ad, posted by FJW, showing this controller with Ideal's Robert the Robot:http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209018387.jpgPhotos posted by Blechroboter from Eduardo Paolozzi's Cloud Atomic Laboratory:http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209043672.jpghttp://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209043697.jpgSo the question still remains, why does your blueprint say Marx, Mike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hey Martijn! Yeah... the connection is now what we have to figure out... :huh: the similarities are on the too close for comfort side. And thanks for the kind words I love this kind of stuff, and it's always an adventure finding more. I should be posting more pics soon! (hoppin' space targets, anyone?) Joe K. said: Related photos of this unusual piece... 43697.jpg]http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/uploads/...-1209043697.jpg So the question still remains, why does your blueprint say Marx, Mike? That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out myself, Joe! :blink: I double checked the scans, and it is an original vintage Marx drawing from 1952 (not Ideal)... and more interestingly, the drawing does include a Marx item number as well (that's the next step to identify). There are a FEW drawings Marx did of a competitor's product (I think all are from the 1960's, though) which include, for example, Kenner's Give-A-Show projector (that drawing is pretty elaborate, and pretty much shows how the toy works), unlike this which is obviously a part drawing (with a product number), which leads me to believe it is Marx item of some sort. Questions would be; Did one company copy so closely (or near exactly) from the other? Or, did one company sell the other its' mold (or parts made from the mold)? (Ideal regularly made parts and items for many other companies, Marx really didn't) Is the car control correct, or did someone replace it at a later time (update-Big Toy Box at Sears does show the car with this same controller on page 51 but doesn't mention manufacturer)? (Is it marked in any way? I'd think Ideal or Marx would have a company name on the control itself somewhere) I'm thinking the car with control may actually be a Marx item, and that would explain everything... The variations with no fin, or some noticeable difference don't really bug me, as copying did happen to some degree all the time (and the gun is not really the toy, but part of the toy, so companies could argue that the likelihood of confusion was limited as far as legalities were concerned). As far as prototypes in ads, it was somewhat common for mock-ups to use whatever handy to get the concept across (so, you'll see some ads showing toys that use parts of other toys, even parts of toys that came from other manufacturers)... Let's see what we can come up with now! Hopefully an answer of sorts, or we'll all go crazy here... Update- it is Marx; see Electric Robot's post below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Ok, now this is interesting so far... The details (finish, numbering cavities, etc.) would indicate the drawing is for a Marx part that was produced (no mention of "void" anywhere), and though everyone copied someone else at some time in the toy biz, Marx usually didn't copy things exactly (they made changes or more likely improvements). Funny and odd coincidence, but FJW did the drawing! <_< Fineas J. Whoopie? Actually, no... "FJW" was a regular Marx technical artist (I forget his full name offhand). And no, I'm not joking. The product number ("#1631-32") means that it was for products #1631 and 1632 (usually you had a "regular" version, and then sometimes either a "deluxe" version, or a store exclusive, like Sears, etc., which explains the ever-present double number, usually consecutive). Now that's great, right? Not really... as the Marx product number isn't necessarily on the packaging, and not always easily found in ads. So far I've looked in a bunch of my databases for those numbers, with no luck (yet). That doesn't mean I don't have them, but either they're hiding from me, or not yet input into the databases (I've years of work to go on them still, well, actually I'll probably never finish!) BUT I did find a reference for product #1630, which is titled... "Rat Tat Sabre Car"! Yikes! (the database it was found in referenced factory documents). Dates mentioned were 1953 (which corresponds to the drawing dates and logical production time) and 1956. So... were 1631 and 1632 different versions of the Sabre Car? Possibly, but not definitely as connecting numbers don't always go to same/similar products... Now, Doctor A, riddle me this; is your mold marked in any way anywhere? And (sorry if it's obvious to others) is what you have a "positive" where the gun design is raised above the metal surface, or is it a negative, like a mold, where the design is recessed? (If it's raised, it's more like a "master", which likely would have been used to make a mold cavity by pressing into heated metal). Update- it is Marx; see Electric Robot's post below  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fineas J. Whoopie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Funny and odd coincidence, but FJW did the drawing!Yep! I designed this piece so I'll go ahead and fill you all in. :P But seriously folks........Great thread! :) What strikes me is that the drawing is for a "Rocket Control". When they did these part drawings was it common to have the name of the toy the part was designed to be a part of referenced on the drawing ?Maybe this idea wasn't connected to a particular toy at the time of the drawing. What if the designer just had an idea about making that type of controller mechanism cooler looking?Maybe the idea was that the controller would be available to be used on a toy to be determined later?I have no idea if this was the way they did things back then but it's a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Fineas! It is a genuine honor... Yes, great, but a little hard on the brain things like this keep me going trying to find all the pieces, and it ain't easy... To answer to the best of my ability: When they did these part drawings was it common to have the name of the toy the part was designed to be a part of referenced on the drawing ? Good question. Mostly, no. For Marx, about 95% of the part drawings don't mention the toy's proper name. For Ideal, it's probably 90% that don't mention the proper name. This makes it somewhat difficult to identify a lot of the part drawings without being familiar with them, or being able to envision the part on a toy. A good percent of Marx drawings do reference a product number (Helpful if you have corresponding paperwork. Also good if you have various drawings that list the same number, you can "add up" the parts to figure the whole. Then for years where Marx catalogs exist, you can find some numbers there too). So, you get lots of "pistol frame", "figure", "left arm", "space ship", "bushing", things like that, and only some like "wire parts for Popeye airplane". When you find the things that have some kind of name, it's really a joy! But even then, sometimes, you'll get "wire parts for Popeye" (Popeye what?), which gives you a place to start, but it can still be difficult piecing it all together. It's real nice when you find part drawings that are obvious... Assembly drawings are usually obvious, and/or named. Mold drawings it's the same issue as part drawings. Other types of drawings have the usual challenges... Maybe this idea wasn't connected to a particular toy at the time of the drawing.... With Marx, most all of the properly numbered part drawings are for particular toys (usually what little concept type stuff there is was not numbered to be in with the regular parts drawings). They were pretty particular about expenses, and vellum was what they considered expensive. It's weird, yes, they tried to keep costs down even with vellum, but at the same time, they often had part drawings (usually hardware, keys, etc.) of the same part for different items (almost like it was too difficult to go back and check if there was a drawing already made for such a part, or more likely it was cheaper to make a new drawing than to pay someone to search for a previous one). For something like an item that looked really cool, and "what could it be used for in the future?" they'd pretty much have a concept or prototype piece made up first (lots and lots of those around), and not so much on paper (that survived, at least). Then it would go in a "file" (box, shelf, storage) for possible later use. Lots of these pop up, some are very crude, and some are quite beautiful. You'll also see lots of variations of some toys floating around that are hand-marked and dated, for example, a truck with a different grill, same truck with a different back, etc. these were concepts "just to see what it looks like", "is it more appealing" or "does this work", etc. (sorry if I went overboard with the answers here!) I'm still thinking maybe the Sabre in question might be Marx... it looks real similar to the friction Marx Sabre... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Robot and Son Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 It is a marx control. The picture that I posted when Doc got the mold is actually made by Marx not Ideal. See Joe's reference to the sabreThe remote does say Rocket control on it and the tires on the car say Louis Marx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyMemories Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Hey Electric Robot, thanks for clearing it up! Saves me a lot of additional digging and headache... (if only I'd been a collector of toy cars exclusively, I'd probably have known it right away! :lol: ) So it's pretty much the remote control version of the Marx friction Sabre in the end. (I guess "rocket control" because it's a really, really fast car!) Item number for it is either 1631 or 1632 (one is likely a Sears version as it's in the Sears catalog, could be just a color difference) I'd still like to know more details about the "mold" (as mentioned above) to define its' use. FJW's ad shows a similar controller (could be a Marx production controller that was modified with fin removed, but also it appears to be art not a photo. Probably a preliminary mock-up photo that stuck for a while) Paolozzi's photos are likely the mock-up that was the source for FJW's ad image (note lack of fin). So, there you have it, Joe, my friend (and anyone else following the saga)... the whole story (or about as whole as we're gonna get for a while!) Now, that driver seems a little familiar... :glare: Ah, found a pic; does this look like the same guy driving the Sabre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martijn Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 great insight in the marx toys, thanks! good luck with this giant puzzle, I can imagine its quite a thrill when you suddenly you find loose parts come together in 1 toy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Robot and Son Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Mike,Yes that does look like the driver mold. It is a little strange, the driver has plastic arms but they glued felt arms to the drivers shoulders and the steering wheel. When you pull the trigger on the rocket control the front wheels and the steering wheel turn. So is this "raygun" control earlier than the Robert the Robot "raygun" control?Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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