Repro Boxes: Concerned About These "original Boxes"

[Robotopia]

To me the side of the box looks real. When a box is old the inks get dry and brittle and tends to crack. I think it's from the ink hitting the surface of the paper and only absorbing so far. So with time the ink and the surface paper fuse into a thin coat that tends to dry and crack. At least that's my theory. Or it could just be the ink only. I'm not sure if this look can be faked. Maybe someone can try getting this look with a recent repro. I agree that the description is suspicious. I'm also not an expert on boxes, but I do have a few old ones.

[plan3b]

I hate to say it, but this is only going to get worse. In addition to my Robot, Ray Gun, & Space toy collection - I collect Movie Posters. Boy, if you want to talk about some "paper products" that'll get big $ - this is the hobby! In fact, with Movie Poster collecting - it is such big business that semi-professional print houses have cranked out dozens and dozens of fake posters using sophisticated printing techniques - with the intent of passing them off as originals. The problem here is that many of those counterfeits were printed years ago - and as a result those fakes are now themselves beginning to show signs of age naturally! For example: a bunch of the Star Wars poster-fakes printed in the 1980s are already 20+ years old! Thus making determining their age even more difficult!

If there is a dishonest buck to be made, you can count on culprits attempting the scam. And with the ability of more and more high-end printing available for less and less to everyone, the possiblities seem to multiply.

[Phil R]

Under TIPS AND TRICKS when searching use IDENTIFYING REPRO BOXES as a search. This thread talks about and helps you identify repros. I really don't think it's that hard when you keep a few things in mind. Pictures are another thing. Can't you return an item if you're not satisfied on Ebay? . Paper printing such as lithos and posters present a more difficult identification but some of the same principles apply. Copy some of the helpful info and keep it with you along with your wants and lists.

Bring boxes to Botstock and I'll help you with some info to identify, no charge of course!

[bartzenegger]

thx guys and phil , i just think this is a problem that is hard to solve. unless we all have the tools and equipment to carbon date. im getting mine tomorrow hhhhhaaaaaaaahhhhh

[Dirk]

Yes - I was also a bit concerned - mainly on the Target box - appeared to be a copy and went for 2,5 K... Now the modern copy boxes are mostly of a very high quality. The squizy sound by driving quickly with your nail on a copy box does not work very well any more. The very straight lines of older printer are nearly gone. But if you have the chance to examinate the box in person - a little magnifying glass is very usefull. I have always this 8x glass in my pocket, when I'm going to a toy show. You see A.) the characteristic clear dots of an original box art - and B.) the very unclear print with striping on the copy. This is very helpful most of the time. (Original view is better than my pics here...) If you are still in a doubt about the origin of a box - a deep sniff from inside a fresh opened box would be also very helpfull. B) Hopefully there are no plutonium particles from the last atomic fallout left...:lol:

[bartzenegger]

Yes - I was also a bit concerned - mainly on the Target box - appeared to be a copy and went for 2,5 K... Now the modern copy boxes are mostly of a very high quality. The squizy sound by driving quickly with your nail on a copy box does not work very well any more. The very straight lines of older printer are nearly gone. But if you have the chance to examinate the box in person - a little magnifying glass is very usefull. I have always this 8x glass in my pocket, when I'm going to a toy show. You see A.) the characteristic clear dots of an original box art - and B.) the very unclear print with striping on the copy. This is very helpful most of the time. (Original view is better than my pics here...) If you are still in a doubt about the origin of a box - a deep sniff from inside a fresh opened box would be also very helpfull. B) Hopefully there are no plutonium particles from the last atomic fallout left...:lol:

HaHA thanks dirk , i do see it . if buying sight unseen try have the seller send a close up like what you did.

very helpful hints

[The Toyman]

Phew!... I've been handling toys and boxes as long as most of you guys and I've just checked the box in question...the 2nd pic looks fake, but that could be the lighting, plus we are looking for a fake and I think that can cloud your judgement. The thing is, the rest of the box shots look real?

The staples do look old and not just rusty, the box bottom looks good (although should it be darker?) and the overall impression was that it's real, or should I say genuine ( a fake box is still a real box :D )

When the box is delivered the new owner will know... :(

he ink is right, the paper is right, and the wear is right. Overall condition is very good ( I think this comment is just to verify the fact that the seller is aware this could be fake) :unsure:

Noel

[JohnA]

I hate to say it, but this is only going to get worse. In addition to my Robot, Ray Gun, & Space toy collection - I collect Movie Posters. Boy, if you want to talk about some "paper products" that'll get big $ - this is the hobby! In fact, with Movie Poster collecting - it is such big business that semi-professional print houses have cranked out dozens and dozens of fake posters using sophisticated printing techniques - with the intent of passing them off as originals. The problem here is that many of those counterfeits were printed years ago - and as a result those fakes are now themselves beginning to show signs of age naturally! For example: a bunch of the Star Wars poster-fakes printed in the 1980s are already 20+ years old! Thus making determining their age even more difficult!

If there is a dishonest buck to be made, you can count on culprits attempting the scam. And with the ability of more and more high-end printing available for less and less to everyone, the possiblities seem to multiply.

I'm glad somebody broght this up. I was actually going to mention this myself. The, so-called, minty whites came to mind. Those were actually made by the same printer years later and have been selling steadily. There's a whole list of inserts and such from the 70's on that have been faked. It sucks too because I want a SW style A insert for my toy room and that's one of the most faked. Now I'll probably be forced to go through a reputable dealer and pay $600-700 for a $150-200 poster because so many fakes are on eBay and at shady dealer stalls at toy shows.

Those aren't even the worst offenders. It's a LONG read but the story of the fake 1931 Dracula one sheet that even fooled experts is great read.

It's only going to get scarier as time goes on.

John

[BotMaster]

Hi everybody...

What about the reprints? Is not there the original negatives or printing plates? Is there a possibility that some of the boxes that we can find now are reprints? or... is possible to find reprint boxes?

[Brian..]

The risk of reprints from original plates is very remote. I'm not aware of any examples. The original artwork hardly ever turns up, let alone the printing plates. Any such reprints would, arguably, be original. Or at least many collectors would be happy with them!

Occasionally you will find box covers that were printed at the time but never used. Prints for the lid of the Dan Dare Planet Gun, for example, turned up in quantity a few years ago. Four boxes lids were printed on each sheet. They made good display items and would definitely make good boxes.

I think we need to revisit this issue. I no longer feel confident about distinguishing reprints from original material. The old tricks (the shiny black layer, the ridge detail, the "feel", the card, the staples) can't be relied on.

Dirk's point about identifying the characteristics of the halftone printing and understanding the four layer process are the areas we need to understand. Perhaps there are other forensic techniques such as using black light? It's fortunate that some of the reproduction box dealers do too much work on their copies: they remove flaws and fill large areas with continuous tone, making boxes that are very easy to identify.

[Action Robot]

I feel as though the best "tell" might come from an up-close examination of the ink surface. Inkjet printers, the most common type for home users, work by spraying microscopic dots of ink onto the paper. Most 4-color process printing involves transferring the ink from a metal plate onto the paper. My thought is that the result would be a more solid ink surface with clean, sharp edges on the professionally printed pieces,as opposed to the inkjet print, which being made up of micro dots of ink sprayed one atop the other, would have a fuzzier, less defined edge. Does anyone with both original and repro boxes, and a powerful magnifier, have any input on this?

I think in Dirk's example, the difference is easy to spot because the scan was done at a lower resolution than the halftone on the original piece, forcing the scanner to reinterpret the halftone and change it. I think a high enough resolution scan would eliminate that "tell".

Anyone making a scan from an original box would copy all the flaws and damage as well as the artwork. Another giveaway would be any scratch, dent, ding, or stain that was obviously printed on the box.